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12 comments:
While I must say I agree with you...and your choice of wording is a bit more brash that how I would articulate...nevertheless, Catholicism does it again...
Ya Know I'm thinking "heresy" every time I hear that phrase "there's no salvation outside the RCC"...just irks me like nothing else.
J.,
Hi, I am a visiter to your blog. I just had to comment on your latest entry. I don't understand your issues with the Pope's planned prayer @ Ground Zero. You quoted-
"We ask you in your goodness to give eternal light and peace to all who died here."
How is this idiotic and heretical? You make this assertion, but the rest of your post fails to prove this.
The Bible does indeed describe the practice of praying for the dead, which Jews and Christians have been doing since OT times. However, you probably would dismiss these references because they're from Maccabees and Tobit, which the reformers removed from the Bible not that long ago.
Do you believe that God is all powerful? God created time; He is not bound by it. He deals in Eternity...past, present, future-- they may all be just one shining, present moment to God. And he knows all things. He can do whatever he wills with our prayers. He can take any prayer of faith from anyone at any time and apply it to any person, place or situation in Eternity. To me, if you deny this you deny the boundless mercy of God. Also, it helps the grieving families to keep their lost loved ones in their prayers and their hearts. It doesn't make sense to NOT pray for a deceased loved one. In my personal experience, these prayers come instinctively.
God Bless,
Amanda
Amanda,
First, it's heresy because Scripture does not teach prayer for the dead (i.e., you can't get someone saved by praying for them). What J-Unit is pointing out is that you are saved through faith in Christ alone by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Also, Jews only started to do that on a few occasions, one being Judas Maccabeus during the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus Ephiphanies IV. (At this time we saw Apochryphal writings coming into play). Orthodox Jews today do not adhere to this; heck, they don't adhere much to the Torah anymore. And Christians never did this.
Also, the Reformers weren't the ones who tossed them out. Nobody throughout church history held them as inspired Scripture. St. Augustine used some of them but never did they hold weight like the 39 books of the Hebrew Bible. Furthermore, the only people who uses these books are Greek Orthodox (Eastern) and the Roman Catholic church. They didn't start using these books until the Council of Trent in the 16th Century (which was a reaction to the protestant movement). They were never considered "Bible" so for you to say that the reformers "removed" them is historically incorrect.
Now for your final paragraph. God's power does nothing to prove your argument about prayer for the dead. God's power is God's power. It's not ours. And what is this "prayer of faith" you speak of? Do we "pray" people into heaven? Jesus didn't do that. Neither did anyone is Scripture. I'm all for praying for people and their families, but to assume we can pray them into heaven is complete heresy to the 10th degree. It sounds as if you hold to a purgatoral view (are you Catholic)?
Amanda, I pray that you take heed to Scripture and not some "man" (namely, the Pope) who is a fallen sinner too.
Grace and Peace.
Isn't it human nature to want to ask God by His grace to have mercy for ones dearly departed. Every funeral I have been to there were prayers to God to bring the departed into Gods rest. I can't imagine attending a funeral with indifference for the soul of the departed. God knows we feel this way and we can't hide it from Him and neither can we hide our hope in Him who we can turn to as the only one who can answer our prayers and is the only one who we can place the hopes of all. The theme of the Pope's visit was "Christ our Hope" Let us all praise God for such a hope and of such a relationship they we don't have to come to Him in fear and hide what we truly think and feel but can come to Him as we are in our weakness in hope. I think Amanda may have expressed this very well that God is outside of time and sees all things of our/mans past, present and future in His eternal present and she is also correct that this has been lovingly practiced in all times as witnessed to in the Bible - RSV
2 Maccabees Chapter 12
39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
Peace
maybe i can get the formatting correct this time.
Jason, I would ask if you could clarify this statement I don't think I understand. "...you can't get someone saved by praying for them)..." praying for the lost for them to recieve God's mercy is at the heart of the life of Christian witness. I dare say you yourself pray for the lost. Truly, God saves but He also hears our prayers and answers them. There are many testimonies I can find on the internet of people who thank God for the tireless prayers of others for their souls. Bible - RSVActs Chapter 8:24: And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."
how can this may be departed to those who have died? Amanda has provided the key and one uses this key to also see that What Jesus did on the cross to save our souls was applied to Abraham, Moses and all those people who placed there hope in God were saved. You see the cross was applied to save those who were born before Jesus was crucified. I hope this helps you see how God is not limited by time and was helpfull.
Again, I'm with ya when it comes to prayer for those who perished, but I must diverge from your point when you claim that a simple prayer might send someone to heaven. it's simply put: heresy. You can't pray a deceased person into heaven or out of an imaginary place called purgatory. Furthermore, you quoting Maccabees doesn't help. It's not Scripture.
For your clarification however: you can't get someone saved (i.e., they will NOT inhereit eternal life) by simply praying for them. Yes it would be nice for us to be able to plead with God to shower his Mercy upon them, but you both are forgetting the JUSTICE of God. If they die without Christ, guess what...they are going to hell. God is Just and must punish sinners otherwise he is not merciful.
Also, you are correct in saying that he answers our prayer. But God is NOT going to contradict Scripture and allow a prayer of salvation to come to pass. That would put God at odds with himself and that simply cannot happen.
You quoted Acts for some reason I'm not sure of. It has nothing to do with this discussion. It's Peter preaching the Gospel.
Yes Abraham, Moses and those of Old placed their hope/trust/faith in God and were saved. That's how Salvation works. But you must do that before you die. There is no second chance. I'm not sure what the confusion is here.
I quoted Acts because of some things Peter said before Simons plea Acts8:20 Peter answered, 'May your silver be lost for ever, and you with it, for thinking that money could buy what God has given for nothing! 21 You have no share, no part, in this: God can see how your heart is warped. 22 Repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that this scheme of yours may be forgiven; 23 it is plain to me that you are held in the bitterness of gall and the chains of sin.' 24 Simon replied, 'Pray to the Lord for me yourselves so that none of the things you have spoken about may happen to me.'
I used this because I believe it illustrates that Simon was counting on the intercession of Peter and others that he would not be lost forever.
I am glad that you are with me on the prayers for those who pass away because that also makes you with the pope as that is all that was happening at ground zero. Placing those souls in our hope that is Christ.
I'm gonna give it one more shot here. :)
I lost my grandfather a few years ago. He was a believer. I don't know if I honestly prayed for him to go to heaven. I didn't need to...because he was a believer. Those who are NOT believers, when they die go to hell. There is no prayer for them. You can pray, but it is in vain. They can't rest in the hope of Christ because they rejected Christ while on earth. Make sense?
I don't agree with the Pope's prayer. Sure it sounds nice and makes one feel warm and fuzzy, but the reality is, if one perishes without Christ, he/she perishes for eternity in hell; regardless of prayer.
I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here going on. I will not comment on all the issues here because I simply don't have time at the moment. All I will try to do is to say a something about the prayer bit.
When someone dies he will either be heading to Heaven or, unfortunately, to Hell (I'm leaving the Purgatory out of the equation for the moment since those in Purgatory are going to Heaven anyways). Both of these places exist in eternity and consequently there is no way out. Do not think that Catholics belief otherwise. The Pope Benedict wasn't praying for those in Hell to go to Heaven or something along those lines.
The question is: What he was praying for?
First of all, does it make sense to pray for conversion of sinners? I hope you will say that it does. And since God exists outside of time, don't you think it's possible to pray for those already dead? Or do you think that God refuses or is unable to answer future prayers? After all, as I said, he is outside of time and thus knows both past, present and future perfectly. Perhaps God, knowing the Pope's prayers way before 9/11 (speaking in human linear time) answered them. Do you doubt that the possibility that some people stuck in the Twin Towers actually converted to Christ before their death with the aid of our prayers?
Now, the most common reason why Catholics pray for the souls of the dead is that, thought the merits of these prayers, they might spend less time in Purgatory (supposing they end up going there). But those in Purgatory are already saved so these prayers would not be asking God for their Salvation. You obviously don't believe in Purgatory but at the moment all I'm doing is clarifying the Pope's action. We can discuss Purgatory here or somewhere else if you wish.
In Christ,
T
Thomas,
Thanks for chiming in.
Honestly, you make some good points, but I must rest within the Authority of Scripture (typical Protestant I am) and you are speculating "what if" while Scripture does not teach prayer for the dead. (Especially prayer that one who has died might go to heaven).
Jason.
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