Since it seems much of the haggling is over apocrypha this, and bible that. I thought I would chime in. For the record, I will certainly will concede that I may have misinterpreted the Pope's prayer as a prayer for the dead. Casting this aside, I still believe prayer for the dead is without basis. And that to base this idea on anything but the Bible is wrong. For the sake of our readers, when I refer to the Bible I am referring to the "protestant" Bible. And since a prayer for the dead will eventually lead to purgatory, I will make an attempt to nip both of them in the bud. In an attempt to answer some questions that will inevitably arise I will consult the modern day crystal ball...google.
First, I will start with the idea of prayer for the dead which from what I can ascertain is a doctrine taken from the Apocrypha. I personally,do not see how one can reconcile the Apocrypha as the inspired Word of God for a number of reasons. First, in the NT there are numerous references to the Old Testament. If the Apocrypha was "truth" would there not be references made in the NT?
Second, unlike the other 66 books the Apocrypha was written in Greek and not Hebrew.
Third, there are many historical errors in the Apocrypha some of the examples are seen in Tobias where Tobias used magic, heart, liver, gall of a fish to drive away a demon. Also, in Tobias says he saw a revolt in the Northern Tribes(997 bc) and was deported to Nineveh in 740 bc, yet he only lived 102 years.
4th, the author of 2 Maccabees infers that his writings are not divinely inspired. But rather a writing of historical perspective.
To sum it up, if there are these glaring errors in the Apocrypha. One must consider/reconsider the doctrines that are pulled from these seemingly human inspired works. Within the canon of scripture lies what I consider the true and perfect Word of God.
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define death. there is a point to my asking.
Death: When your heart stops beating and you die. Done. Can't come back to life. Then...
Hebrews 9:27
"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment..."
2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
When your physical body dies, you go to heaven or hell.
I would have to concur with Jason on the def. of death. Somehow I get the feeling we may be going down the path of Onesiphorus, Zecheriah 9:11, Luke 23:43, I Peter 3:19, I Peter 4:6, etc..
would the definition of physical death is when the body is seperated from the soul and spiritual death as seperation from God be a good working biblical definition?
I agree that spiritual death (with eternal consequences) is ultimate separation from God...but I wouldn't agree that the body is separated with the soul (ultimately). Sure your body lays in the ground but according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, there will be a resurrection (physically) upon the consumation of Christ's Kingdom.
What are you trying to get at my friend?
Physical death separation of body from soul. James 2:26
Spiritual death=separation of man from God by sin. I would equate as someone who is alive, but has not been justified. Matthew 8:22, Eph.2:1, Colossians 2:13
Eternal death would be eternal separation from God. As in once you die(physical death) and have not recognized Jesus as Savior you are eternally separated from God.
Just at a definition that will keep us all on the same page and maybe help make sense of some things written in the bible and relevant to this topic. Like when Jesus RSV Matthew Chapter 22:32: `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." and St. Paul RSV-Romans Chapter 8:38: For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39: nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As you may begin to see a catholic hardly prays for the dead but for the living. Hopefully this can lay down a path to proceede on Now I have to go for now lunch is over but I will post at my next oppurtunity with the rest but let me throw out there that all Christians have a notion of purgation and properly taught purgatory is not a place but a state of being and of being in the eternal time (right out of the mouth of Pope John Paul II) it is commonly given the idea of place and time because we as humans can better talk about it that way. I will develope that idea in a few hours. God willing. I just wanted to get that much out because I am a convert to Catholism from protestantism and the first thing I realized is that there are two different languages going on in both and its easy to get lost in the different ways each other means things.
I would ask how it is you hear these verses. RSV 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 12: Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --Bible - RSV
1 Corinthians Chapter 3:13: each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.15: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
After spending around 10 hours at the bar today, I think I will take a stab at 1 Corinthians 3:13. Luckily, I work at the bar so I wasn't imbibing on the fine spirits.
1 Cor. 3:13 is a fine verse to use if one wants to say by doing good works you gain an eternal reward. But the problem with doing that is I would blow it out of context. I think it is important to look at the who, what, and why Paul wrote this.
The passage to me, is clearly a reference to the Corinthian church who were all together nut jobs in and of themselves. The reason I believe this gets written is, we can see at the beginning of chapter 3, though the Corinthian church professed to be Christians they were acting like lunatics and were not at all spiritually mature. In middle of chapter we see Paul telling them of the need to "plant and water". As in, when you are a Christian it is necessary to build your Christian faith so that you might enable others to grow. When we finally get to the aforementioned passage in verse 13, Paul speaks of man's work getting burned by fire. This is not a literal fire, but a metaphorical fire. We see 1 Cor. 3:11 that Christ is the only foundation on which we can build. For example the building is the people of God. The preachers are the builders. The foundation of God's building is Jesus Christ. So, if a pastor builds a church on the foundation of Christ, but starts spouting off unsound doctrine when the trials comes they will be burned. They are saved because the foundation is Christ. Because they have unsound doctrine the "building" be left in disarray. Conversely, if the church is built on sound doctrine and teaching, when the trials come. The church will not be burned up, but rather survive and continue on because they are solidly grounded in the Truth.
keep in mind, it is very important to look at Scripture contextually. If we fail to do this we can open up ourselves to ideas and doctrine that are not Scriptural.
very good, the fire will test us in the early church Jesus/God is a fire and the angels are depicted as firery spirits because they are live in Gods presence. So yes like shaderak meshack and abendigo (forgive me for the misspelling) entered into the furnace and were unburnt. we too enter into the furnace of Gods presence and the things that are not of God are burnt and that which is remains. he himself will be save but only as through fire.
that is purgation and that is what the catholic church calls purgatory. if you want to think of it as happening in the blink of a eye or 10,000 years you can as they are the same in Gods eternal time.
From the mouth of the very articulate John Wesley:
"The time is coming when every one's work shall be made manifest: for the day of the Lord, that great and final day, shall declare it - To all the world. For it is revealed - What faith beholds as so certain and so near is spoken of as already present. By fire; yea, the fire shall try every one's work, of what sort it is - The strict process of that day will try every man's doctrines, whether they come up to the scripture standard or not. Here is a plain allusion to the flaming light and consuming heat of the general conflagration. But the expression, when applied to the trying of doctrines, and consuming those that are wrong, is evidently figurative; because no material fire can have such an effect on what is of a moral nature. And therefore it is added, he who builds wood, hay, or stubble, shall be saved as through the fire - Or, as narrowly as a man escapes through the fire, when his house is all in flames about him. This text, then, is so far from establishing the Romish purgatory, that it utterly overthrows it. For the fire here mentioned does not exist till the day of judgment: therefore, if this be the fire of purgatory, it follows that purgatory does not exist before the day of judgment."
fire is to be understood this way. RSV
Hebrews Chapter 12
29: for our God is a consuming fire.
and it does consume bad doctrines and attachments to sins and anything in us not holy and pure for nothing impure can exists in Gods presence.
You are judged when you die.
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others. Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately,or immediate and everlasting damnation.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.
Your soul has to go somewhere when you die and are awaiting the ressurection of the body at the last judgement.2 Corinthians Chapter 5:8: We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
and evidenced also in Hebrews Chapter 12:23: and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the [spirits of just men made perfect],
we go either to heaven or hell and before you say ha! you see you yourself say there are only heaven and hell. those undergoing purgation are doing so because they are entering into heaven. purgatory is not a second chance for people but a purging of their imperfections just as St. Paul describes in the verse above. purgatory is not a last thing like heaven hell death and judgement. it ends in the presence of God.
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